The Oneness of Humankind: Payam Akhavan

In this powerful episode of Resilience Matters, Starr President and CEO, Elizabeth Carey, is joined by Dr. Payam Akhavan, an expert in human rights and a passionate advocate for community-based resilience. Together, they explore how the collective power of ordinary people can spark profound, lasting change—especially during these turbulent times of global transition. Dr. Akhavan shares his compelling vision of a “glorious planetary civilization” that awaits us, reminding us never to underestimate the power we each hold for good. Tune in for an inspiring conversation on hope, community, and the resilience that can transform the world.

Don’t miss this insightful discussion—listen now!

Transcript

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It is now, again, my honor and privilege to welcome and introduce to you, Doctor Payam Akhavan. Doctor Akhavan is the inaugural holder of the Macy Chair in Human Rights. And Professor Akhavan is also the senior fellow at Mercy College, a member of the Permanent Court of Arbitration at The Hague. Associate member of the Institute at Wai Internationale and Special Adviser on Genocide to the prosecutor of the International Criminal Court. He's published extensively on human rights and international criminal law in leading academic journals. Is and is on the Editorial Review Board of the Human Rights Quarterly. He served as counsel and advocate in notable cases before the International Court of Justice, the International Criminal Court, the European Court of Human Rights, and the Inter-American Court of Human Rights, the Supreme Court of Canada and the Supreme Court of the United States. I am so pleased that he was willing today to take some time and share with us some wisdom from his perspective about, serving humanity today in the time of a world of extremes. So please now welcome with me, Doctor Payam Akhavan. Thank you very much for that kind introduction. Elizabeth. And I'm very grateful to be speaking to, the, individuals associated with Starr Commonwealth. And I cannot imagine at this challenging time in the world, a message as important as yours, a message of community based, resilience and service to humankind. And much of my, remarks today, which I will try to keep as brief as possible, is about, how we should never underestimate our own power for good in a world that sometimes can fill us with gloom and despair, and we may be overwhelmed at the, absurdity, sometimes the grotesque absurdity of those in positions of power. But, at the same time, my experience has been that it is very much that community based resilience that over time can bring about this sort of profound, lasting transformation that we need. Especially as the world, goes through this turbulent transition from, what we have known in the past, to, what I would say is a glorious, planetary civilization which, awaits us. And I say this, based on my own experience as a member of the, Baha'i community in Iran, a religious, persecuted religious minority. And, when we left for Canada, I was nine years old. And for me, it was difficult to understand at that age why we had to, leave our country. I had no notion of the idea of, religious, hatred, persecution. Violence. Human rights was an abstraction. The idea of international law and a just world meant nothing to a nine year old who has obviously other priorities. And in the early years of the revolution in Iran, when, our world became encircled by gloom, loved ones where, imprisoned, tortured, executed, the, the, blissful world of, innocence that I knew, was shattered. And one event in particular, I think, really forced me to make, certain choices about my own life. And that was when, at 16 years of age, a contemporary of mine, also 16 years old by the name of Mona mahmood, injured, who lived in the city of Shiraz in Iran, was arrested because of her, activities, including an essay that she had written in high school demanding, her human rights and, condemning, religious, intolerance, tyranny and oppression. And, in the summer of 1983, Mona, together with nine other women in Shiraz, were hanged, essentially because of their religious beliefs and that, events really, shattered, the illusions that I had in my North American bubble as a teenager, where the most important thing, perhaps, was, your appearance, what you wear, what kind of music you listen to, and the other things that typical teenager would be, worried about in a, consumerist culture. And, it really made me think that if she made such a sacrifice simply for. Because she stood for, a better world, then what was my responsibility, given all the freedoms and opportunities that I had? And that was the beginning for me of a, journey of struggling for human rights, of struggling for justice. And although I've been an academic in, you know, all the Ivy League universities and what have you. One of the things I've learned is that nothing is as powerful as the School of Life experience. And I think this is, in fact, part of the problem with the educated elites who, very often privilege, intellectual sophistication over basic, spiritual and moral, quality, which at the end is what makes us useful and good for society. Not formal learning, but the capacity for empathy, the capacity to feel the pain of others, and to assume personal responsibility for doing what we can, where we are situated. And not, despairing, which is a very easy thing to do. It's easy both to be ignorant, simply not know any better about the injustices in the world. Or to simply say, well, it's also daunting and overwhelming. I give up and I'm just going to be really depressed. So this was the beginning for me of a journey where I decided to go to law school to become a human rights lawyer and that journey took me to, many places in the world and encounters with many people I would have never met had I not decided to step outside of my own, little bubble of my own comfort zone. And to make a long story short, among the places that I visited was a place called Yugoslavia, in the 1990s. Some of you will remember there was such a country which disintegrated into violent bloodshed. The term ethnic cleansing, emerged, from that war. And I was, in my 20s already a UN human rights investigator. And I went on to become, war crimes prosecutor, in The Hague. And it was a really rude awakening beyond the very rosy idea I had about the United Nations. A world, a peace, a world in which human dignity was respected, to see the capacity for people who are in the wrong place at the wrong time, to become swept in this, hateful, violence. Largely because of unscrupulous, demagogic leaders, who, always in the name of the good can rationalize, great evil. And we see this all around us, in the world today. So, the idea of justice, of course, also, in the abstract can be very, simple, appealing. But then you realize how difficult it is, and you ask yourself, how can you really do justice to a mother who has lost her children, to people whose lives have forever been, shattered? And once again, I go back to your theme of resilience in the face of trauma. Because at the same time, as you see in a war zone, the the, the worst and more most cruel expressions of human nature, you also see our capacity for nobility. You see how people can go through the unthinkable and survive and go on to, demand justice, to reclaim their, humanity. You also see people who, have no reason to be, you know, whether it's a conflict zone or a place where there's suffering, but who are there because they feel the sense of responsibility, because they are aware of a shared humanity that binds us together. So I saw, I guess, the worst and the best that human nature, has to offer. Rwanda was another place I served with the UN, which was truly shocking. In 1994, some 1 million members of the Tutsi minority were exterminated while the world essentially watched. This was not, you know, the Holocaust from 75 years ago, but it happened right under our noses. And the United Nations, the international community failed. The people of Rwanda. And there you also begin to understand what people call political reality, the idea that, well, who cares about a million people somewhere in Africa, we have no, political interests. There are no resources. There is no reason for us to to become, engaged. So you see this cynicism, this, very narrow idea of self-interest. We will only do what is in our interest. And, of course, when the tables are turned and you're the one of the receiving end of violence, you begin to see how truly a callous and catastrophic, that indifference is. And the world could have, with minimal effort, saved hundreds of thousands of lives in Rwanda. And that's just a microcosm of the wider problems that we have in the world. Where there is apathy, there is always an excuse. And where there's empathy, there is always a solution. So the problem is not that we don't have solutions. The problem is, for the most part, that people don't care until they are the ones who are suffering. So, I could speak about the work I've done trying to promote international law. As an alternative to war and violence. The importance of international institutions in giving victims some sense of hope, in, situations which, are really seemingly impossible. But I want to focus instead on, our own resilience, because it doesn't really matter whether you are an international human rights lawyer doing high profile work, or you're involved in your own community, in your own backyard, everywhere in the world we can be, human, Unitarian and spiritual entrepreneurs. There is always a market, if you like, for, serving, humankind and that that, to me is what is important. The form or its expression is of secondary, importance. And if anything very often I find that in the elite circles that I've been there is often a lot of hypocrisy, a lot of corruption, a lot of virtue signaling, if you like saying the right things, but not really doing what is necessary to bring about justice because everyone wants to feel virtuous, but people don't want to pay the price. So I've seen how human rights, social justice and all the other, issues that we think are, a measure of our, progress, measure of human betterment. We pay lip service to that. But we don't want to change any of the unjust structures which serve the interests of, of, elites. So I've learned to be a bit cautious and skeptical, about feelgood, platitudes and slogans. And at the end of the day, it's really about people's behavior. And in my, 35 plus years of experience, I derive much greater hope from the goodness of ordinary people than I do from the great promises of, political, intellectual and and other elites. Which brings me back to why, it is so, heartwarming to be speaking to people from star, Commonwealth and why I began by saying that this community based resilience and empathy to me is ultimately the only way to transform the world, because we may get excited about elections and politics and who's in power, who's out of power, and those things do matter, don't get me wrong. But at the end of the day, the revolutionary changes that really bring about a seismic shifts in our consciousness and civilization are always from the bottom up. They begin in the grassroots, and they're not things that happen overnight. They are the result of generational, struggles. And those struggles, I think are very worthwhile. And for one thing, when we understand stand that change comes from the bottom up and that it may sometimes take, years before we see the fruits of our neighbors, then perhaps we become less vulnerable, less susceptible to despair, to reading the news and saying, oh, my goodness, you know, this or that. Politicians said this stupid thing today, or, you know, the type of things that have engrossed us in this culture of social media where everything is about spectacle, everything is about distraction and endless entertainment. A world in which we have lost the capacity for a thoughtful, spiritual reflection without which we never understand our own nobility, our own potential for good. We don't understand even the idea of, human dignity. But I want to situate this, eternal struggle eternal in the sense that as long as we've been human beings, we've had this struggle between the ego and the soul, the struggle between that which gravitates us towards narcissism, greed, corruption, violence. All the worst expressions of human nature, on the one hand, and on the other hand, our capacity for nobility, solidarity, compassion and, having a sense of justice and what have you. So we begin to understand that, we don't develop those capacities at random. You know, we go to school to learn, skills, to refine our intellect. And in the same way, the soul needs to be nourished. We need to develop our spiritual capabilities, and we need to do that in a sea of materialism, in a culture which is all about instant gratification and, superficiality, which even reduces doing good in the world to the feel good platitudes and then virtue signaling, that itself is a reflection of a superficial, culture. But when we help others, we're nobody's savior except our own. Where? Our own savior by, experiencing the joy, the pleasure of empathy, of serving others. We begin to nourish our soul and realize our own resilience, our own, power. And I think that given the kind of mood that is descending upon us, this is now becoming a matter of emotional life and death. Once upon a time, maybe, I don't know, people would do, yoga, would go on a hike in nature to, maybe revitalize themselves after, you know, a stressful, a week at work or what have you. So there was a sort of awareness of our spiritual well-being or mental health, which is all very important. But if you think about it in a more profound way, this isn't so much about I need a break, but it's really about what we do every day when we wake up. It's about imbuing our life with purpose and meaning. And in a sense, we are experiencing at a cultural level, death by mediocrity. Back to this culture of, endless entertainment and distractions. So we're doing ourselves a great disservice by seeing spirituality as something we do on the weekends, something we do, simply because we are, depressed or anxious or what have you, rather than understanding that it is really existential. It's about, literally being dead or alive, in an emotional, moral and spiritual sense. But I want to, end by speaking about our place in history, because these themes that I've explored have been with us forever, ever since our ancestors, I don't know, roamed about and lived in caves. We've had these choices. And of course, over time, we've evolved in, in more, complex civilizations. We have prolonged our, life expectation, through, technology, medicine, science. I mean, the world that we have today is a radically different one than our ancestors had. So just as we experience anxiety and depression about all the things that are happening, we also, are, uniquely poised to reimagine and recreate the world in ways which have been, unthinkable in previous generations. And I even think about my 96 year old father, who celebrated his birthday yesterday, in fact, who was born in Iran in a household without electricity, without running water, who lost half of his siblings to dysentery and cholera because there was, in 1928, in Iran, an infant mortality rate of 50% and all of us, if we go back a few generations, will have, had ancestors who lived in this same world. So I asked my students sometimes, why did we, come up with the idea of human rights in modern times and not earlier? Well, if you look at medieval Europe, life expectancy was 27 years of age in medieval Europe. And if you think about the bubonic plague, which wiped out talking about pandemics, wiped out half of the population of of Europe, and they didn't have Zoom or Amazon or any of those comforts, in those times you think about, random violence, hunger, disease, ignorance, and you begin to see that when we are at the stage of basic survival, we don't have the luxury to think about, the idea of, human dignity. We're just worried about getting through the day, without without dying. I mention this because we live now through an era of unprecedented change. Getting back to the story of my father. He was brought up without electricity. Now he speaks to his grandchildren on zoom. And we take that for for granted. And it's truly astonishing. I sometimes just think about the world that he has witnessed and how it's entirely unrecognizable, for better and worse. Now, in 1844, I believe it was on May 22nd, Samuel Morse sent a telegram from, I believe it was the United States Congress in Washington, DC, to the Baltimore train station. And prior to that, telegram and I believe the message was, what hath God's wrath prior to that? Historic, telegram, the fastest way of conveying a message was either by riding a horse, or by carrier pigeon at best. And within a few years they were already laying cables, connecting the United States with the United Kingdom. And there was a famous telegram sent by the American president to Queen Victoria, at the time. And a hop and a skip and a jump. And we are in the era of the internet. We are in the era of, instant communication, artificial intelligence, modes of transport and, patterns of, economic behavior and production of cultural identity, which have fuzed the world into a global village here in Canada. Marshall McLuhan wrote in the 1960s about the global village. And it was a kind of dreamlike future among, idealists. Well, today, the global village is here. And it's not always romantic. It's also the world of mass migration. It's the world of war and conflict and terrorism spilling over in our on our shores. It's a world of inextricable, interdependence. And I say this because, my own belief is that we are witnessing a remarkable, transition of humankind towards a planetary civilization. And if you go back and you think what the prophets and visionaries and poets of the past spoke about when they spoke about world peace, you begin to see that despite all the divisive, hateful ideologies and illusions that are peddled by political leaders, and psychologists, I think call it infantile regression, that as an adult, when you can't deal with the challenges of adulthood, you want to regress back into your mother's womb. And guess what? That's not going to happen. It's just not possible. And very often when we see a world which is so turbulent, where everything is changing so rapidly, it becomes very appealing when someone comes and says, let's go back to that glory is past where everything was so simple. Well, first of all, you can't go back to that past. Secondly, things were perhaps not as glorious as we imagine them to be because we always see the past through the prism of the present. We project onto the past whatever we want it to be. To satisfy our psychological needs. So there's only one direction that we can go, which is forwards, and we can have a discussion about what is the best direction to go. But what I want to say is that today we witness that the interdependence of humankind is no longer some, naive, idealistic, utopian vision. It is an inescapable reality. We have no choice but to survive or to perish together. Which brings me to my final point. Climate change. Our relationship to the natural world. I've been working recently with small island states in the Caribbean and the Pacific on the issue of climate change. And in April of this year, I visited a small country. I doubt any of you would have heard about it. It's called Tuvalu. Tuvalu. Its population is 11,000 indigenous Pacific islanders. It's a speck on the map. You can literally not see it on the map because it's so small. It's two hours flight away from the nearest island. It's an independent country and member of the United Nations, and Tuvalu is going under the water because of rising sea levels, which have to do with the thermal expansion of water, because of temperature rise, because of the melting of glaciers, in both the South and the North Pole, because we have more and more extreme weather events, a stronger and stronger a storm surges. So here is an entire nation that is going under the sea, basically because of a consumerist culture where we have just been, using, energy, polluting the environment without understanding that, we depend on Mother Earth to survive, no matter how technologically advanced we are, no matter how arrogant we are intellectually, that we have the solution to everything, we are being reminded once again that we are an insignificant speck in an infinite universe, that the Earth will go on with or without us. And it doesn't matter what the politicians say, because there is this thing called science. If you have an illness and, you are told by the doctor, this is your illness and this is the medicine, you say, well, I'm not going to listen to you. Well, it doesn't matter because your your body has a certain organic, chemistry. There's this thing called biology, and you don't listen to the advice of the doctor at your own peril. So now we are told that our wasteful, excessive way of life, which defines progress and the pursuit of happiness through consumption, just buy more and more, or else you're not going to be happy. And of course, the exact reverse is true, that we consume more and more and we're less and less happy because those are not the things that enable us, but that way of life. Now has reached a point where nature is pushing back and the consequences of, catastrophic climate change are truly a game changer, because in the coming years, we will be forced, no matter what our belief system is, to understand that our interdependence, our planetary civilization is not just the romantic ideal, but it's the only choice that we have. So, to conclude, I'm, aware that the coming years will be full of challenges and that we need to be strong and resilient in the face of adversity, but that ultimately, that nobility of human spirit, that understanding of the oneness of humankind and our oneness with creation, is what will triumph. So those of us who, share these beliefs, stand, on the right side of history. And I have no doubt that ultimately we will prevail. I was struck by again, the reason we reached out to you. Just, how important your experiences have led you to your knowledge and and, belief systems about us as part of one human family and in particular, one of the couple of things you said that just really resonated, I think, for me, but also, probably for many people listening today is that with apathy, there is always an excuse. Yet with empathy, there is always a solution. And part of one of the core belief systems of star is that, problems are opportunities so that when we ourselves struggle or people struggle or we have difficult barriers or systems, those are opportunities to find solution and to do better. And so again, I those are very important. I think the other one I just loved was that no matter where we are. So maybe in my little town where I sit today, or maybe it's all across the world, being a humanitarian, entrepreneur is also a perfect explanation for much of what we know changes the world. It is seeing the humanity in each other being there, doing the work, sometimes fighting for what needs to be done to ensure that people, are truly seen and have their needs met and have the opportunity to have a fulfilling experience and life. I do have some questions. From people, and I'm going to ask them just in the order in which they came. So, one of them is long and the writer says In cases where one group has historically displaced another, such as US settlers displacing Native Americans, the Israel-Palestine conflict, the Kurdish struggles, or the Dalai Lama's exile. How does international law and ethics address the tension between historical injustices and the rights of current generations, who may not have been directly responsible for those actions? First part of the question and is it possible to achieve justice in these situations where balancing the rights of those who now legally or practically occupy that land, what frameworks or principles guide these efforts? And are there examples of successful resolutions that account for both the historical wrongs and the present day realities? Well, a brilliant, question, but also very difficult to to answer because it has so many layers. I'll begin with, sort of the legal response and law is actually quite limited because in law, we always look back to what was the law at the time. So, you know, if you look at something like slavery while slavery was lawful until, well, in the United Kingdom, for example, in the 1830s, that prohibition began. And of course, the law is made by the powerful. Certainly it was not those who were enslaved that agreed for slavery to be lawful. So I think that, when we when we look back to our collective past, not so much about Group X, wrong group Y, but our collective past as humankind. We see that we, have all come a very long way. It goes back to the idea of human rights. For the overwhelming majority of history, slavery was accepted. Slaughtering the weak was accepted. It was, seen as the right of the powerful to do as they please. So I say this because let's not take for granted that we now live in a world where we have the idea of human rights. We have the idea that it's unacceptable to discriminate on grounds of, race, religion, gender, those basic ideals that we could take for granted took generations, centuries of struggle and, evolution. So, all this to say that we should certainly be aware of the injustices of the past. We should not sweep things under the carpet, especially because those injustices continue to be perpetrated in the present. But I also think we should not enshrine our grievances. We should not create the politics of resentment because it's not healthy, either for victims or for, so-called perpetrators, future generations. I think the point is that we need the opportunity to heal. We need the opportunity to transform and to move on. Because the future is about the fusion of all races in one, world civilization that is, the irresistible, reality that we are all, confronted with. So let us, be aware of history. Let us be aware of its complexity, that there is no culture anywhere in the world which is immune from criticism. But at the same time, let us, heal, transform, address injustices, and move forward rather than being stuck in the past. And I would end by saying that a culture of victimhood is not healthy at all a psychological level, beginning with the premise that I am a victim and everyone has wronged me, a therapist will tell you, is the worst way for you to, assume responsibility for your own well-being, even if there are injustices in the world. And to move forward, that's where resilience comes in. Resilience is about not being blind to injustices, but understanding your own agency and your own potential. Another follow up to that one, actually, is how do you reconcile the need for accountability with the need for forgiveness in a post-conflict society? Well, these are great questions. It's a very good one. And after all these years, I'm still trying to reflect on my own answer, but I think there is scope for both. I would say that accountability very often is a societal need. When we prosecute someone who is a murderer or is a rapist or, whatever the case may be, we are doing that on behalf of the States. We are doing it on behalf of society, not necessarily just on behalf of the individual victim. And it's not so much the culture of an eye for an eye, you know, a tooth for a tooth, but it's about, the need for society to deter such crimes and to, serve larger societal interests. But forgiveness, I think, for the most part, is personal. And forgiveness can mean many different things. Forgiving and forgetting are not the same thing. I knew Jean Paul some putu from Rwanda, whose best friend had killed his father during the genocide, and he descended into this hellish nightmare of substance abuse and attempts at suicide because of the grief and the rage which had consumed him. And then he had his epiphany, his moment where he reclaimed his humanity, healed, became a very successful musician. And then he went back to the village where his best friend was being put on trial. And he came before the entire village in this kind of communal justice. And he said, I forgive you. And his community thought he had lost his mind, and he says, no, I've forgiven for myself because of this, anger, and grief, I think it's a saying in the Buddhist tradition that anger is like drinking poison in order to kill your enemy. And I think that sums it up quite well. Beautiful. How can we address the challenges and barriers that hinder the realization of the oneness of humankind? And what, in your experience, has been the most impactful way to inspire others to embrace this idea of the oneness of humankind? Transforming our own lives? It's the solution is always inside of us. You know, the great, Sufi mystics. Rumi. You may have heard of him. He says, look within thy thine own self and you will find a galaxy. And that goes back to what I said, the we have this immense potential within us. And when we tap into that, it's like a superhero story, that the capacity that we have for, transcendence is, within our own soul awakening those capabilities. And I think that, you know, words are cheap. Everyone can say the right things, but it's in our own actions, in our own capacity for, compassion. Service to others that we touch others. And ultimately, I think that is what makes the world go around when people are, touched sometimes by, you know, random act of kindness. And I really believe that resilience neighborhoods and communities are how we change society. I believe less and less in the capacity of political systems, as important as they are to bring about really lasting, fundamental change. I wondered, there's a question in the chat that that relates very deeply to the work that we do, which is about working with edge and educating youth to be engaged and contribute to fostering a sense of of justice and global unity. And and do you see that as a way to move towards this planetary interdependence and civilization, which is to do this with the youth? It is such an important question because ultimately, getting back to the theme of, generational change, you have to get them when they're young, so to say. And we see, especially in this, generation of whatever the TikTok and Instagram, you know, the social media culture, with a spike in depression, anxiety, self-harm, suicide, so I think there is a crisis. There is a crisis among our youth. And we have, with a sense of urgency to give them the possibility of looking at themselves and their lives differently. It's the best gift that we can give them. So to teach youth, even children at a young age, the importance of spiritual values, a sense of community, of authentic, deep ties, whether among family or friends, I think is a matter of survival. It's not just a good thing. It is what will inoculate them against this. Really corrosive culture. Which, you know, has brought us to this state of, despair and substance abuse and self-harm and all those other things. At the end of the day, the solutions go back to our inner self and our inner transformation. And to our connections and relationships with other people. Absolutely. The things we know is the most critical is knowing that you are connected and belong to somebody, to some group, to some people, that those are what saved us. Absolutely, absolutely. How has your faith informed your work and your hope and or kept you grounded in this very difficult work that you do? Well, I think as was clear probably in my presentation, you know, the spirituality, awareness of the human soul, and, and the ties that bind us together has been quite crucial. And with that comes a sense of responsibility, conscience, trying the best that you can with your own human limitations to live, life, with purpose, and with meaning. But I think that that wider dimension also which shapes, my understanding of our place in history, is very much, based on, at least my beliefs as a behind that, we are witnessing the long awaited coming of age of humankind. And I think that was apparent in the type of comments that I was making about our past or present and the future, the glorious future that awaits us. So when we look at, all the different philosophies, religious systems, that have brought us to this stage, perhaps we, we, we realize that there is, in fact, only one humankind, one religion, in effect, one unfolding collective truth. And that for the first time in history, we have no choice but to live in a common home as as a single people. It's going to be difficult, painful getting there. But I think it's actually blindingly obvious that that is where we're headed. So the only question is, are we going to get there, through pain and suffering and chaos or through an act of volition, where we deliberately and consciously, engage in a conversation about our oneness and, map out how we're going to get there in the best possible way. So these are all, I think, shaped by, spiritual insights and beliefs and not just, you know, rational, intellectual ideas. You pick up in some Ivy League university. As you said at the beginning, really having those, lessons from life, that spirituality and empathy that you get from life and not just from learning that that leads you to to help. There's another question about, that certainly religion, organized religion has been both a source of profound inspiration and a cause of deep division throughout history. And in your view, has religion been a I love this, a net positive or negative in humanity's journey towards realizing the oneness of humankind? And how can we harness its unifying potential while addressing its divisive tendencies? These are excellent questions. Well, I would say certainly, religion and I would, you know, have a footnote there. Depends on what you mean by religion has been in my life a net positive. And it has become for me a matter of survival. In fact, as I said, just spiritual insight, understanding, just as you understand, let's say, nutrition, that, you know, eating certain types of food will cause cancer and heart disease and others will prolong your life and give you, you know, energy and well-being. It's the same thing with the human soul. What are the things that we feed our soul that are going to weigh us down as opposed to lift us up? So I think that spirituality, religion, being in community with others, with a shared purpose of human enablement, these all help feed the soul. And I think our civilization is still remarkably ignorant about the spiritual world. You know, we're technologically, scientifically incredibly advanced, but still quite ignorant about really systematically, methodically understanding what is the discipline of spirituality, not just the random, feelgood Hollywood flick, but what really helps us, achieve our potential. So in the line of work that I've been in, the kind of suffering I've seen, the trauma, if I didn't have spirituality, I would have gone under a long time ago. But I also think that we need to understand that perhaps what we have called religion very often is more akin to religion. That it is used very often in, in ways that are divisive, oppressive, that mask, hypocrisy, which is why we should be less concerned with labels, with less concerned with form and more with substance, is what we are doing as individuals and communities contributing to human betterment or not. That's the question. And one could equally be an atheist and, you know, be of great service to society. And someone could be the most, you know, religious person and be absolutely horrid, as we've seen throughout history. But one thing I will add, and on being an intellectual circles which are generally quite godless, where you celebrate the fact that you have no, religious ideas because only superstitious, irrational people have those kind of beliefs. I think we have to take a long, hard look at how our materialistic culture, which has thrown spirituality and mysticism out, has brought amidst tremendous prosperity, has brought so much despair. A lot of my work, you know, I go to countries like Bangladesh and Bolivia and Kenya, I mean, poor countries in the global south. And I don't want to romanticize poverty, but I find that very often people are happier than they are North America because they have each other, because they have some consciousness of a spiritual world that is bigger than they are. So the culture of narcissism and greed that we've created is truly poison. So so I think we need to also understand that we need a spiritual renaissance, for our own collective survival. I, am regularly reminded each time we engage with somebody who is living this work, how important it is for each of us to do it where we are, to live in the way that we want the world to be. Will and I believe it will rise the tides that create that world that you're envisioning, one of of justice and of hope and where we are all in this together. One of the the African word aubuntu, which, we actually have a fund at Star Commonwealth, the Ubuntu Fund, that, you know, I know a definition for that is humanity to others also that I am what I am because of who we are. But I am not a person without without you. Brings us through. Yes. Technology. Yes. Globalization. I have a greater opportunity to reach people around the world than my ancestors did, and to live that work, to really show up and do what we've got to do to help each other have fulfilling lives. I want to thank you profusely for spending time with us this morning, Doctor Hochman, this has been, really wonderful. I, I'm grateful that you, and spend some time out of your very busy schedule to talk with us. And I know that there will be continuing challenges and barriers and, difficulties that we will face as we continue on this journey. But having the moral compass, the spiritual compass, the ability to be in this world as we want the world to be is what will save us. And I am very grateful that you are doing the work you're doing at the international level, as well as preparing our students for a world that they can make a difference as well. So thank you.